Ciao Mark,

funny!
Alessandro

That is funny.

Kirk

well, it’s true… Apple should be punished for this commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldjHqHC6szA

Why not add a direct email link to Apple support.

Limited browsing experience? There’s nothing limited about browsing sites developed using open standards such as HTML and Javascript instead of closed and proprietary systems such as Flash. If anything your screenshot above illustrates one of the key limitations – the need to install additional software.

If webmasters stuck to open technologies their sites would be accessible not only to users of devices such as the iPhone which are capable of running Flash but limited for other reasons, but also devices lacking the power to run the bloated Flash runtime. They would also be more accessible to users with special needs, such as the blind.

Too funny. Too complicated for general public. Flash apps for iPhone vs. viewing Flash pieces whilst using your iPhone… hope Apple comes ’round. Wouldn’t be surprised if Flash apps “disappear” from iTunes though… Liz

That’s too funny. Hope Apple comes around at some point – would serve them and us all right.

Hi Graham,
The limitation is that users cannot view the entire web, something that the Advertising Standards body here in the UK agree with. Today 94% of connected PCs have our latest player, that’s hundreds of millions of users upgrading because they want a richer Internet. The millions of users hitting our site on their iPhone OS devices simply hammers this home. To your point on the need to install additional software, Apple already ship Flash with OSX and a multitude of firmware over iTunes.

Flash is open in many ways, first of all it’s free to the end user. More importantly the Flash Tamarin virtual machine is open source, and used by Mozilla, as is the nano-jit in Flash Player. Earlier this year we opened the SWF binary format, and RTMP and AMF protocols for delivery of video and data in highly optimized ways. We’re trying to take drive innovation across the web, leading by example.

Ultimately I don’t think the iPhone is designed for the blind though, they need a little more than a single button. However accessibility is pretty acceptable on Windows today and we continue to look at ways to enable this on other operating systems, where demand is extremely low.

lol – love it!

[...] Conclusion : Bonne nouvelle pour les flasheurs mais le problème Flash-Iphone / Adobe-Apple n’est (ne sera) résolu qu’a moitié. En effet le Flash Player n’est toujours pas disponible sous safari pour IPhone. [...]

Mark:

Users CAN view the entire web – Flash is not the web as defined by the W3C, it is a proprietary plugin. That Apple chooses to ship it with OSX changes nothing. I’m not surprised advertising groups would advocate its use since they love being able to shove annoying animations in users’ faces. Personally I’m glad my phone doesn’t display such annoyances, and I disable Flash on my desktop browser.

It’s true that Flash has become fairly ubiquitous on the desktop but it’s disingenuous to assume this is due to people “wanting a richer internet” – most people who have Flash don’t even know what it does. Regardless, there are standard, non-proprietary ways to provide said richness and these are what we as developers should be supporting.

Adobe is opening some of Flash that’s true but it’s still not a standard. Note that FLV is not one of the codecs supported by HTML5′s VIDEO component, there’s a reason for that.

The iPhone isn’t designed for the blind per se but it’s more accessible than any other smartphone. With its extended multitouch gensures, high contrast options, zooming and speech it’s arguably more accessible than most desktop OS’s too.

But it’s still a mobile device and running Flash in a browser on a mobile device is superfluous at best and performance eating at worst. Plus, its desktop UI roots are not compatible with the iPhone’s UI – has anyone considered how you might perform, for example, a drag gesture that Flash will recognize while running in a browser that already defines that gesture?

There’s more to the issue than Apple policy.

To be clear the ASA in the UK are responsible for setting standards for advertising to consumers. They found that Apple’s advert was misleading because they claimed a complete browsing experience, which isn’t possible without Flash/Java/SL.

Users don’t care about standards, they care about applications like Facebook, Ebay, Youtube and MySpace. 8 million of them per day update their Flash Player to ensure that they can access rich content on the web. If you ask Joe the plumber he’ll tell you that Flash gives him youtube, and he doesn’t care if it’s an open spec or not.

FLV is also an open spec available freely on our website, anyone can use it. HTML5 isn’t really worth talking about until it arrives, no-one at this time can say which codecs are supported. My bet is that Flash will remain the delivery platform for 75%+ of all video online.

Actually we have solved the pan/zoom issues with Flash over a year ago. A great example is the HTC Hero, and in time you’ll see this solution running in the Palm WebOs. It’s solved by passing the gestures between Flash and the browser event models over the plugin API, and it works seamlessly.

I suggest you watch our Day1 Keynote from Adobe MAX 2009, in that we show some device demos and talk about performance advancements for our upcoming player.
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2009-develop/max-2009-keynote-day-1/

Mark

I guess the word “complete” is open to debate then. Millions of people use AdBlock Plus so I guess whatever device you have in your pocket right now doesn’t offer a complete experience either. To me complete means supporting W3C standards and Webkit does this admirably.

The fact that the W3C was slow to implement video support doesn’t mean that every device on the planet should support one of the many workarounds implemented by various companies. That’s called a de facto standard and these are only ever harmful to the community (and ultimately those who develop them) Just ask Microsoft.

I’ll look into the pan solution you mentioned. I can’t imagine how Flash could intelligently intercept drag events while the user is panning the viewport but perhaps someone found a way.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for standards and the W3C do a fine job, so does webkit and we contribute to that effort significantly.

We see the Flash Platform as an enabler for a huge array of use cases, on the web, on devices like mobile/automotive/home/consoles etc. It’s not about making it the standard for anything, our business is selling tools to creatives and developers. They, and their customers, demand a different level of expression than is available in HTML today. Remember IE6 is still a dominant browser used by the majority.

Oh, and incidentally I have an HTC Hero which does have the ability to shut off plugins/jScript/images should the need arise. I’ve found that it’s “mobile sites” feature allows for content providers to easily push me tailored content for the screen; at times this will result in ads being turned off.

Though you must remember that ads aren’t just annoying crap, they are the front end of a companies business model. If we take the ads away then it seems great, but that’s like tearing the ads out of a newspaper before you read it.

The net effect of which is that the newspaper goes out of business.

*likes this*

Flash does enable lots of fun things, I don’t deny that, but calling the web incomplete without it is simply false IMO, that’s all I’m saying. If I want pretty graphics and games I’ll download one of the 85,000 apps available for my iPhone. The web is fine without it and, again, more accessible.

RE AdBlock, I was just using that as an example of a plugin that many people use yet most wouldn’t consider the web incomplete without. Ditto for Silverlight or other superfluous technologies.

I won’t get into my views on advertising here as that’s not within the scope of the article but suffice to say that I’d have a hard time shedding a tear if Big Media went out of business.

BTW I should mention that I think using Flash to create native, runtime-free apps is a great idea. Hell I might even try my hand at it if Adobe releases the compiler soon enough that learning Objective C wouldn’t be quicker.

A quick bit of Javascript could offer iPhone users a link to the native app instead of initiating a futile attempt to embed it. I would much prefer this as I could choose which apps I want to bother with and would be spared the crap the developers couldn’t be bothered to submit to the AppStore, nicely separating the wheat from the chaff.

Not a bad idea, and one that we launched a few weeks ago as the first of many “Flash Platform Services” enabling viral downloads and sharing across various sites including appstores.

A line or two of JS is a “Platform Service” now?

Sorry, I’m not up with my marketing speak I guess

@Graham_J

I think defining something that exists only through the standards leaves a lot outside. And it happens that many people consume what you leave outside of the Web (or what you define as Web).

So, Hulu.com, Eurosport.yahoo.com, MLB.com are all using Flash to deliver their services and conduct their business. At the same time millions of people use their services. Are you telling me that all these services delivered through Internet are not part of the Web? Or that the Web will be a better place without them?

Another thing, if you want to stick to standards so closely what about JavaScript and CSS implementations in all the browsers. All the hacks needed in order to have the same look and behavior (especially for heavy AJAX sites) across different browsers/versions to what standards are complying? Or what about Google plug-in for IE needed if you want to run Google Wave? Or just because we are talking about JavaScript or CSS we don’t have to apply the same measure?

I agree some of the ads are very annoying. But, how in the world is the fault of Flash for that? When someone gets killed with a knife I didn’t hear anyone blaming the knife manufacturer. It seems Canvas will do tomorrow some of the things Flash already does today. How much time do you think it will pass until you’ll see annoying ads implemented with Canvas aka Open Source and Standard technologies? Will you blame Canvas for that? They will be less annoying because they are using Canvas?

Flash is so much more than “enable lots of fun things”. Big and small companies are using Flash to build applications delivered on the Web. Here are some examples: Sumopaint.com, Mindomo.com, FedEx, Raiffeisen Bank etc. There is a big difference between a web site and a web application. And Flash is amazing in terms of productivity and features for building applications.

I don’t want to annoy you or anything, I just feel that sometimes many people tend to use different measures to talk about things from the same category. And many times we tend to speak with the heart and not with the head (projecting our wishes and not using facts and logic)

Disclaimer: I work for Adobe.

YES, please put Apple direct link to email support, it is the only way they might raise their heads.

Can’t the flash player for the iphone just use apple’s own video/audio rendering facilities so that steve feels comfortable that he controls the horizonta/vertical ?

JUST GIVE US A SANE PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE FOR DESIGNERS AND SANE ANIMATION FACILITY!…
(ps: everybody in the house say actionscript !!!)

YOU APPLE … YOU YOUUUU !!!

“So, Hulu.com, Eurosport.yahoo.com, MLB.com are all using Flash to deliver their services and conduct their business. At the same time millions of people use their services. Are you telling me that all these services delivered through Internet are not part of the Web?”

Yes. They are applications that use the HTTP protocol for communication but since they do not use HTML or any other web standard they are not strictly web sites. Are FTP sites, torrent trackers, Skype or instant messaging networks part of the web? They are all “services delivered through Internet” too. Most of them even use HTTP to some degree. But no, they’re not are they?

Thus my point – Flash is cute and all but it’s not the web so it’s unreasonable to expect everyone to fall in line with the Adobe way just because they feel like calling it the web. There’s a reason exactly zero browsers have built-in Flash support. It’s an add-on, an extra. Something that works alongside the web.

I’ll also point out that you answered your own question: “There is a big difference between a web site and a web application.”

“Or just because we are talking about JavaScript or CSS we don’t have to apply the same measure?”

This is a separate issue but I guess I can reply to it anyway. Yes, there are some issues with the way clients implement standards. So? Should we throw away standards because the Microsofts of the world are incapable of implementing them properly? I don’t think so.

“I agree some of the ads are very annoying. But, how in the world is the fault of Flash for that?”

It isn’t, and I didn’t say it was. I simply mentioned that annoying ads, games and video are what the majority of Flash apps are used for today, and I personally can live without most of it.

“And many times we tend to speak with the heart and not with the head (projecting our wishes and not using facts and logic)
Disclaimer: I work for Adobe.”

I don’t work for Adobe so I think it’s clear which of us has an objective, logical view of the situation. I develop tons of sites and apps and I use technologies that do not tie my clients to single vendors. That’s a fact and that’s logical. No heart required.

ha – well not exactly, it’s a framework for Social, Collaboration, Distribution and monetizations of applications (games, widgets, apps) targeting desktop, web and mobile devices.

One of the cool features is a desktop distribution manager that provides really deep analytics.

We have a little video here…
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/services/distribution/

Ciao Mark,

got some press:
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/11/02/adobe-engages-apple-in-passive-aggressive-warfare-with-iphones/

Alessandro

Yea – though I don’t think they found out from my little blog

Flash player